This week, we invite Sasha Samochina to the Zone. We discuss her work at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, her transition from Art to Science and where they overlap, pivoting in times of urgent need, Russian Science fiction and her ideal alien artifact, before wrapping up by rhapsodizing about Moog synthesizers.
Learn more about everything referenced in this episode by clicking the links below:
Sasha’s website and work
Sasha on “Visualization and Designing the Impossible” IPFest 2018 Panel
Sasha at IPFest, on open-source space data
Jet Propulsion Lab’s page of downloadable 360 and VR/AR videos
Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History
Virtual tour of the Jet Propulsion Lab
***NOTE THAT THIS IS A ROBO-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT***
Caitlin McShea: Hi, Sasha. How are you doing?
Sasha Samochina: I'm doing well. How are you?
CM: I'm good. Thank you. Where are you these days?
SS: I am in Los Angeles, California in my house, Northeast Highland park and sending some very good qualities. Pretty nice here. Actually, it's like 90, it's been 90 degrees, which is crazy. A little bit strange for January. I was not complaining. Yeah.
CM: Well, I wouldn't mind 98 degrees right now. It's snowing in Santa Fe right now. Everyone else loves it. I'm not a big fan of, I grew up in Texas. So I'm still adjusting. Are you able to go into the office at all?
SS: So I have gone in, so I've been, I've been at the office a few times, but not recently, there were some, you know, essential tasks that I had to do, including setting up some HoloLens devices, which is some hardware that I work with often made by Microsoft that helped to do remote kind of assistance when someone's at home. And then someone else is building something in the high Bay or in a clean room. So I was helping to kind of the it side of, of some of that work, which isn't really my specialty, but I'm one of the only people that were, could really do it, which is exciting, but also very frustrating at the same time, because those of you that know any IOT work is always like, I figured it out, just kidding.
This is gonna take two more days. So that's been fun. And also we've been on lab with my project pro space. We will, we use 3d CAD visualization to look at spacecraft and full-scale using a medic reality. So we've been on lab helping different missions to, to look at their spacecraft and their designs. So one of the most exciting things is actually we're in the high Bay, which is where we actually build spacecraft at JPL.
Let's call it the spacecraft assembly facility. And we're in high Bay one where they're currently building the Nissan, our mission. And we're basically in there with my team, having some people down the whole lens and be able to see where they're going to be moving some equipment the next day or some parts of the spacecraft. So they can basically, I, I say that we make sure that engineers can sleep soundly at night, knowing that the big thing that they have to do the next day will not like bump something else or it'll fit correctly. So we're able to sort of holographically project what they're going to do before they do it so that they can have sort of peace of mind.
So fully, you know, in, in what we call the bunny suit, which, you know, had to tell PPE looking outfit with, you know, the mask, the hairnet we have shoe covers. And so it feels very much like a really dorky version of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory. So, so yeah, so I've been on a few times and each time is pretty exciting.
So I, I get it. It's always really strange to, to do social distancing, but also having not seen so many of my coworkers except for in this like 2d world to actually be like, you're still a person has been really nice.
CM: That's great. I'm glad that you have that opportunity. I think actually this might be a good lead in if you wouldn't mind explaining to the audience what it is that you do all of the, that you,
SS: Yeah, I should have started with that. No problems to Dover, to a bunch of Charcot. So I wear a lot of different hats as they would say. And so I, so I'm really working in this sort of planning and execution systems department in span of engineering and science at JP cl. So plainly that means I work in software of missions that you might know, like Mars, perseverance, currently traveling to Mars or what you have behind you and your background that people can't see in a podcast.
But that is the Cassini mission. The end of its mission a few years ago to Saturn. So we create both software that helps control the spacecraft and get data back down to earth, but also helping to plan and design some of those things. So I work in this place called the ops lab, which is kind of an experimental space within that world. We're kind of the cool weirdos that think of new ways to use and leverage technology to visualize cool things.
So we're working a lot in a mini reality, which is basically being able to see the world around you and projecting things either through a mobile device or through what I'd mentioned before the HoloLens device, which is a Microsoft made amended reality tool, very futureless futuristic looking glasses that you can still see the world around you, but you're not gonna bump into stuff. We also experiment with virtual reality, which is you do not see the world around you. So please be careful. And we're also just doing, you know, kind of innovative ways of working quickly through software problems.
So I'm the deputy manager of that lab. And then I also had a project called proto space, which is a 3d CAD visualization project that basically uses reality to have engineers be able to take their CAD or computer aided designs out of 2d and put them into 3d and be able to see the spacecraft that they've been, you know, tirelessly creating in this incredible way in the comfort of right now, their own homes or perhaps at JPL.
And then I also am a group supervisor for the user interfaces group. So I can also see all these cool projects where we have so many talented folks that, you know, do the side of operations and kind of planning and even figuring out how to really get specifically now our deep space network, which is the way that we talk to everything in space, how we get to get those signals back down and have the three locations that get those to work and, you know, creating a user interface or something to actually understand how things work with the technicians is really hard.
And so a lot of, a lot of the folks that I get to be the group supervisor for work on some highly complex, super amazing things. And I'm just always like, can you demo that for me? So really, you know, that means I'm on the computer all day, but it's, it's very fun. I can be on the computer, but I can also be, you know, an amended reality sometimes. So it's a different way to think of screens. So it's an exciting, it's an exciting world to work in.
CM: Yeah. It seems like the future. I mean, it's a lot of people's presence right now, the screen to screen interaction, but it's absolutely the future. And it's interesting to, to hear how you guys were already pretty well equipped, I think, to transition into this remote work style, but that you're still capable of engineering spacecrafts remotely. It's, it's wild to even conceive.
SS: Yeah. I mean, honestly for me, it was a very big plus because the project proto space, it's kind of a hard sell sometimes because I'm like, it's practical, but we do look like, we're like, Oh, cool, look at this cool new way we're doing this. But as soon as you experience it as someone that is, you know, an engineer or an engineer, trying to explain something, even to let's say a scientist or a stake holder, you're suddenly like, look at the size of this thing. I told you this can fit into this. And they're like, Oh, like it's, it's very practical. You know, our brains work in that way.
But yeah, in this remote setting, that project has become a lot more important because suddenly people are like, Oh, we're starting to build this spacecraft at work at JPL. And I should say, JPL stands for the jet propulsion laboratory. I think I didn't say that before. And we can dive into if you're interested in any of the history of, of, of the lab, I can do that. But you know, it's, it's a, it's a cool history. It's, it's one of the reasons I work there because it's weird, but you know, to have that ability to sort of use a hardware that's available with a software that's created a JPL and then, you know, as seamless as it can be, I, I would say technology always is never going to be like, Hey, look at all, work done.
Everything's perfect. But that's part of, what's exciting about the world all the time. And you know, there have, there has been a need for certain things that we didn't think we'd even ever build. And we can kind of take the software and sort of pivoted a little bit, I guess, to be able to expand on that. Actually, this is an exciting project that I always like, I haven't really talked about it with anyone publicly, but it's public knowledge. We worked scoop early on it's it's already, it's already been released the JPL news and stuff.
So I'm not breaking news right now. Anyone in the communications department at JPL, I was like, what is she doing? No, all good. So we got to work on JPL basically early on when we were just going into quarantine was thinking how we could practically help with the resources and the brains and the, the facilities that we had. And so they created ventilators emergency ventilators for, for COVID patients in certain critical state that we saw that there weren't any ventilators actually being created for that, for that need.
And that use case. So really kind of quick user research interviews with people. And so they were like, okay, let's do this. We've never built medical equipment, but we built spacecrafts. So I think we can figure this out. So we had just, you know, a group of insane human beings then diving into working with doctors and respiratory therapists across America and the globe to sort of understand what needs to be done to create this.
And so we, we ended up making, so the emergency ventilator was made to be well to be given to other places across the world, as well as in the U S since to the plans on how to both, you know, build the thing and operate the thing, which is awesome. It's a free license, but it's because it had to go through FDA approval and all of that, you have to apply to get it. And so we had a bunch of different people all across the globe, as I said, apply for a license and they were able to receive it.
But the problem that we were having, even as we were building it and testing it in different facilities was, well, how are we going to explain to people when they get this information, you know, a PDF and a piece of paper is great, but how are we gonna explain how to use this and how to build it, you know, more practically than just reading instructions. And then you also have the language barriers sometime. So I was contacted and they were like, surely you can think of something. So my protest space team, and I basically like stopped production on anything.
We were building for the product then. And we pivoted and created interactive instructions for both how to build the ventilator and how to operate the ventilator. And so we kind of split it into two teams and we're a group of, well, we had 10 people total on the team. So we kind of split into these two groups of the operation side and the, the, you know, building side. And we're able to create two different products. One that was, you know, made for people in the medical field.
You know, we made something that was mobile. That's something that you could cash on your phone, so you can check it really quickly. So your internet didn't have to be spotless, which, you know, in a lot of places, it is not as we even started this conversation. So Internet's bad as NSA. And then we created the building instructions using CAD models and a 3d web view, again, that you could cash and then be able to spin the model around, look at every part of it. And then also we filmed an actual way to assemble each part.
So I got to go in and film both. We made two ventilators, a compressor ventilator, and a medic. And so we also had that practical video to be like, Oh, if you actually want to see this, then you can also click through this. So seems easier than it sounded. I mean, we took two weeks and we completed the product for the pneumatic. And then we took another week and did the same for the second, but it was this beautiful kind of quick. And, you know, I was the proudest person in the world because I saw all these people that work on my project kind of really just pivot and be like, okay, we're talking to, you know, nurses and respiratory therapists.
Now we're understanding the workflow. We are like so thankful for their time. Also a lot of the times that we're like walking between things or like commuting. And so, but they were like, this is very important. So it was really this, you know, this is a group effort for this larger cause that it was the perfect example of why I like working at a place like this is because you can drop everything and sort of say, you know, all of these projects can kind of go on hold.
We're going to get the best of the best to try and, you know, create something that can maybe help humanity in the current moment. And, you know, the government was like, yeah, sure. Here's some funding, you know, I'm not sure how that all went down, so I shouldn't speak to it, but everyone was supportive and, you know, and now we have these, these two devices that are going to continuously be able to be distributed for those that want to, or need them. So, yeah, that was a really, that I think during this time, that was one of the most rewarding and sort of exhausting and exhilarating things you got to take part in.
And I feel very lucky.
CM: Yeah. Well, I think, I think that's fantastic. And thank you and your team for doing that. I, I think what that demonstrates is a really a wonderful thing that humans can do, which is pivot and adapt in times of need. So the fact that you all took it upon yourselves to address a much more pressing and urgent problem in this way is fabulous in and of itself. The thing about that story that I'm most excited by is the additional aspect of it. The, the way that you introduced the instructions, such that something like an open access machine is actually accessible because quite often, you know, I've, I've stumbled upon many, many items that are super helpful.
Let's say 3d printed objects that you can use to retrofit machines so that you can, you know, continue on in whatever endeavor, but even still, I come upon those instructions and I'm lost, I'm absolutely lost. And I hope that I'm the only person in the world who experiences that. But the idea of open as truly accessible open accessibility is so wonderful and that you can lend your, your technological and visual engineering skills towards even that aspect of it is really cool. And it's not something that I've heard about before.
SS: Yeah, it was, I think we were all sort of learning as we went and, you know, Michelle Easter, who was one of the head engineers for the project, she was sort of pivoting and also being like, I am doing something I've never done. And, but also so inspiring and completely sort of, you know, things were just, people kept on sort of getting onto the project. And we were sort of in the last moments of it, because it's something that they realized that they didn't have.
And then when they found out we were doing it, everyone was like, Oh my gosh, this is excellent. But then they were like, wait, you guys do this here. And we were like, yeah, we have this whole thing. And so then, you know, you can kind of get siloed when you do day to day work. And this sort of opened up that community. And I think that's a beautiful thing too. I've got everyone sort of speaking with each other and these different ways, because we have like, you know, 5,000 people that work at JPL. So it's hard to know everyone. And you know, a lot of times when people think of software, they think of just like, I don't know, they either think of like the Microsoft word that they use or, you know, the, the video conferencing tools that we use, or you think about the planning software that you have to use every day that might be a little broken or your time card.
They don't think about maybe using software to elevate the sorts of things that can be possible within your workflow. And that's like exactly where we come in and say, Hey, this is exactly what we love. And let's, you know, let's listen to you and make life easier. A lot of people are like, yay.
CM: Yes. I think that's good. Yay. Thanks for expediting existence in this world. It sounds like you found a really weirdo wild community in JPL. I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about why it is that you're as happy as you seem to be, to be a part of it and then maybe you can launch into the history.
SS: Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I do think it's, there are a lot of things that JPL is very good at. I think I've been there for about five and a half years now. My journey has been strange just because I sort of have hopped from place to place. I started in communications with our communications department, which is lovely. They run the website, they run all the social media and education and kind of creative ways that outreach has done, which I think they do a wonderful job with.
So it was a great way to sort of combine my love of science communication with my background in art and technology. And then I jumped to this ups lab world a couple of years in because I got very interested in, in immersive media and they were doing this augmented reality stuff. And I was lucky enough to create the first three 60 video for a release for NASA. And that was simply because the technology was going to become available.
I decided to just mash things together and spend two weeks you're out a problem on my own. And from the curiosity, Mars Rover in February of 2016. And that's exactly when the API API came out for YouTube and Facebook to do the three 60. So basically this ability for more people to see, to see things in three 60 view. And so after that experience, I made a bunch of them, but I was like, wait, no, I need to get more on the technical side, but go into, you know, what are we using to do augmented reality at JPL?
The answer is unity and game development. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is totally what where I want to be. So I started out there more or less producing projects and then grow into, you know, leading some of them and then, or put a space to be exact. And then, you know, becoming the deputy manager, which is great because they get to sort of just see what everyone's working on. There are so many different people we have about 30 folks, maybe a little less than 30 now that are working on all different sorts of projects and just picking their brains and making sure that they have some, you know, they have someone to talk to about their cool things.
Sometimes you forget, you work on cool things and you want to, yeah. You're like, Oh, I'm just like making some software for the new Mars Rover. And I'm like, okay, tell me more. You know, I find myself doing that. Sometimes I was like, Oh, I just have to do this thing. And people are like, that sounds pretty cool. Can you tell me more about that? So that community has been great, but the wider community too, it's like because of my communications background, I've been able to sort of know a lot of different sorts of people because there would be media interviews and sort of, I would try to find connections and new ways to tell stories that we could, you know, released to the public to engage more people.
I think my goal very much is to make science and engineering more accessible to a wider array of folks. I don't, I don't think it's a system that's very open. Even being myself. I feel like I didn't err on the side of going to school for science, I went to school for art because, well, first of all, I was like, Oh, I really like doing this. And I got into school where I can do this. I'm going to try it, but I'm going to go this other way where I'm incorporate science into the art work instead of the other way around.
And people kind of go both ways, but it wasn't a very clear path for me at first, but I kind of created this, this, this way about where it made sense for me, but I, I am very driven and very good at convincing people, things and wacky ideas, I guess. And so I think for me, that's, that's something that a lot of people at JPL share, I think the wider community that I know just, we want to say, Hey, you could work here too.
There are a lot of different sorts of jobs you could have. You don't have to be rocket scientists. I surely am not. And I also am in many conversations on high level things. I'm like, wait, we're talking about like some physics that I, I don't think I ever took a class in this. So I'm just going to sit back and take as much high level information as I can. And that's where we are right now. But I think that's really good too, is also getting that brain on you.
That's kind of a, I call it the systems engineering brain where you think about the whole system and that's, that's a job. You can have a JPL and it can be technical or even non technical. It can be more in the arts or communication side to understand all of these different missions and science goals and how they form together. So all in all I do think, I do think there are a lot of forward thinking, people that want to share the information and sort of educate the new generation of explorers and make that generation of explorers be more diverse and you know, more, do even crazier stuff than, than our generation does.
And I do think that that that's going to happen. So that's been, that's been really nice and, and that's always with a grain of salt. Everything's not, I always say like, I'm always so excited to talk about work. It's not always wonderful, but I would say overall, I have now also being in a position where I can help grow people's careers or at least give advice. And if they'd like to listen to me to, to give that, that hope and that those kinds of ideas of what people want to do and, or figuring those hopes out, you know, at least pointing them in the right direction in terms of who they could talk to because chances are, you're gonna, you know, if I can think of someone that works in a place that in a department you'd like to work, if you work at JPL or not, there's a hundred percent chance that that person will be like, Oh my gosh, when do you have time to talk?
Let me tell you everything and then be there. So that's sort of surrounding yourself with those sorts of people is, is, is easy. And that's why I sort of love the community. And the history is, you know, is a little weird too because GPS actually predates predates NASA. So they started in the thirties, whereas NASA became a agency in the fifties. And so they actually started working on ballistic missiles, which aren't, which isn't great, but you know, that's how this all began.
And during that time actually Sputnik launched and you know, I'm originally from Russia. And I always say that it's hard to be partial about what I'm a big fan of. Is it Sweden or Explorer? One sweet Nick was the first thing in space, but explore one is the first thing that did some science. So it's hard to say, and I will never tell what my preference is. I don't think I have one. I think both are great peaks. I do think that explore one is awesome and it sounded the van Allen radiation belts based on a project that was basically duct-taped to explore one by a class at Caltech.
And so that, that, that whole story came about because of JPL doing missile testing. And because of them figuring out how to sort of launch things into space and then creating simpler one, which is the first NASA mission and the first mission to, to, to launch and do science for the U S, which is amazing. And the people that started JPL were just a ragtag team of kind of crazy people. They called them, you know, they got in a bunch of trouble for doing experiments and having an accidental explosion happening on Cal Tech's campus.
And then they ended up starting JPL and the Aronow not far from Cal tech, so they could do their crazy experiments. One of those people being Jeff Parsons, who is, if you haven't read about him, just a, just an interesting character, very, very smart, very into rocket science, very into the occult as well. A very, a very interesting character who I, I don't think there has been anyone quite like him before and really was, was it a lot of the minds behind how JPL got started and it had kind of an unfortunate life throughout, but I think the beginnings of sort of having him lead the way with this group of seven students to start figuring out how to launch things into space is pretty crazy.
You know, we've all thought about doing something nuts like that, but they actually did it. And I think it's the sort of way of thinking that it's like, well, I can't not do this. This is the only thing I can think about. So I'm going to go for it. And I love that sort of personality. So yeah. Started by a bunch of psychopaths with great science sense and, you know, I it's, it's cool to be a part of a history and it's good to sort of also rewrite it by having, you know, a more diverse, diverse sort of amount of people working there.
Now I do want to say that all those people were men that started JPL. And I do think that we still have a long way to go with a company that was started in the thirties to continuously have that be a mission. But for me, that as a personal goal to continuously sort of open the door for women and people of color and just, you know, be as inclusive as possible because that's also maybe not always the face that is put forward with, with NASA.
And, you know, I've been told, I don't look like I work at JPL, which I find to be a great comment actually, because I, I always am like, why do you say that I've got, people have said to me like, well, you're very like artsy and looking and I'm like, what does that mean? Let's dig a little deeper please, but, but it's interesting. And it's, I mean, it's, I would never shame someone for things like that, but, you know, I also want that to not be a question asked of anyone.
And I do think there's work to be done on, you know, creating, creating a different sort of idea of who can work, where, because honestly anyone can work where I work. As I said, there are so many different opportunities and it doesn't just have to be through the science and engineering route as well. So it's kind of cool to think about it that way. And I would hope that I think that everyone, you know, above me at JPL would, would agree on, on that statement, you know, continuously just trying to keep minds open.
And in 2021 now, you know, we have to, we have to be very aware of these things.
CM: Oh, understood completely. And, you know, we we're a much younger institution. We were, we were founded in the mid eighties, but I think the same thing you call your founder psychopaths, I'm going to do the same. I feel like I have the right to do as well. But yeah, just a lot of very scientifically thoughtful individuals who are looking kind of more broadly at a systems level instead of at the atomic level, founding this very strange little Thinkspace, but of course, identical looking in exactly the way that you describe and that's less and less the case these days, but still always room for incremental progress in that area.
So yeah, I think that, I think that's a very important virtue to continue to push upon as we also push upon the horizons and edges of the science that we develop.
SS: Exactly. I mean, and also we're talking one day after MLK day and I think it was, you know, I think as we go through those holidays now, I think the rift self-reflection and ways of changing and ways of moving forward become even more potent for me. MLK day, you know, being time of self-reflection and it becomes more and more important to me to sort of, to sort of really think through a lot of, a lot of the ways that things can change. Because again, as I said, I I've actually only been a group supervisor. I got my promotion in April, so it was during the pandemic. So virtual group supervisor.
But I do think that when you become kind of an, a more managerial position, which always sounded so terrible to me, but actually I realized I really enjoy it because you get to, you get to listen to people and you get to help them to, to do the things that they'd like to do, which is inherent, certainly something I really love as being a very empathetic and, you know, interested person. I love conversations. I will talk to you all day long and just be like, tell me more.
What's that all about? So, so yeah, just, just being aware, just being aware of all those things. I think it's, it's easier than it seems as just takes a lot of, you got to spend some time on it and, and a lot of that reflection is important for not only me for, for the place I worked in. So my personal life as well. All of it.
CM: Yeah. And just to say this, this conversation, as you say, it follows MLK day, but it's also the day before our first black female vice president is going to be inaugurated. So like what a nice little sandwich.
SS: Yes. Perfect timing actually. Yeah.
CM:Okay. I want to ask you one more question about your path before I shifted to the object, because as you said, it wasn't exactly the straightest path and you're working in, in the same hope and endeavor that I think we are with interplanetary, which is to create ways or access to hard thoughts, large ideas of science through not necessarily through media, but interplanetary obviously relies heavily on film on science fiction as counterfactual imagination, things like that. And you're doing a lot of that work as well.
But as you said, your initial background was in art. Did you always think that you would kind of pivot towards this art as a means for science accessibility or I don't know how to ask the question I'm asking.
SS: I know the answer to this. I think so. Yes. I was actually really interested in biology in high school and I I've been a very studious person my whole entire life. My parents actually said, it's unfortunate how much homework I've done, because they were like, you really don't need to, you need to do your homework, but you don't need to do like every single extra credit. And every, but it, it gave me this work ethic that I think is good. So I might disagree with them, but because they just didn't see a lot of me in my childhood, as soon as homework became like more intense, I was, which is probably like sixth grade.
They just didn't see me anymore. I was just in my room doing homework and trying to understand things. So in high school, yes, as we were applying to college, I was really interested in a biology degree or pursuing something of that nature. Didn't know exactly what I just knew. I loved studying, you know, genetics and, you know, when we went through just all of what makes us human beings and, you know, read a little out of Richard Dawkins was just like, okay, you know, high school stuff, Dawkins might be a good or bad, but at the time I was really interested in how, you know, connected in this one in this one way in bio, in biology.
And so I was like, wow, she's away. But then I was struggling in my classes and was thinking, I dunno. And I still applied. I applied to four colleges. I applied to a school, the art Institute of Charlotte and Y U and California college of the arts and Cooper union. I got into all of them, but Cooper union, which is understandable, could be, it's hard to get into, but I was still mad. I was like, but I did so well. So most of those were art schools and I suddenly was like, huh, well, that just sort of happened.
I applied to only art schools, I guess that's what I want to do. And I chose to go there and Institute of Chicago, which I liked because it was, you know, touting itself as a conceptual school, which I think is great, which makes me feel like, you know, you can make your own kind of forge your own path. And I went originally for painting, which then I was like, this is not the most practical. And I, I didn't enjoy the department very much just because of certain things. I dunno, just wasn't didn't want to do it.
And then I switched to video somebody on new media, which was awesome because it did have this way of combining technology kind of like things happening on the internet with like, you know, programming and audio design and video and film and all of it together. And this like very experimental space that I loved. And the video DataBank was part of their world, which you could go and watch any kind of rare video that was an art video that wasn't available anywhere else.
So would just spent hours doing that and going through the school, the artists to its library, collections of things. So it was very heavy research oriented stuff on resource though. That's great. It was, people didn't even know that existed. I was, as my advice, sports guitar, I was like, did you know, you can go and touch art in gloves. Like whenever you want in the archives, people were like, what? I never did that. I was like, what? That was like the coolest part. You get access to the, one of the coolest libraries I've ever been in, just in terms of, you know, that access because you're a student.
So, but really the thing that connected all the dots for me was interning at the field museum of natural history, which I found as a resource by going simply going to the, the office that helps you figure things out. What is that called? It was like the education office and got paired with a wonderful woman who was like, you seem like she was like, you're just taking way too many, not enough studio courses, way too many regular classes. Cause I was taking a lot of science classes. We had great instructors that were coming from university of Chicago from just, you know, all of the university of Illinois or Bana, like lot of cool instructors that were just teaching SAC.
We had like an electricity and magnetism class. That was awesome. There was a class on how to make holographic images. There was a class on just entomology, which was very difficult and the teacher also worked at the field. So I was just, I was just immersed in kind of working on these science things in art school. And I think it wasn't really adding up to this education, my, where my, what do you call them? Like a counselor, I would say.
Right. And so she put me into a program where she was like, okay, they need this multimedia person to help with environmental conservation programs at the field. And so I took that internship and with, they were like, you have to know flash they're in. Do you know flash? I was like, of course I do. Did not know anything about flash learned flash like from YouTube quickly, like figure it out how to do some simple stuff I was ready for my first day, did didn't realize what I was even doing or they'd be like, okay, here are these datasets.
Can you visualize them in some sort of way? So I made these deforestation, animations handed them in and it was like, okay, cool, what's the next project? And then, you know, two weeks later, my boss came to me and he's like, wow, those animations really helped with, you know, with the, with the project and with talking to the government and saving that land. And I was like, what? And so I realized what he never told me the big picture because he was also, you know, busy doing other things. And I was really quickly working and not asking questions, which I learned you have to ask questions, but the whole project was to, and it's still ongoing at the field is to, to save Amazonian land by way of doing scientific research and basically finding different species of animals, doing anthropological research to make a case for the government of that place.
That's being decent force due to big industry. Sorry to say, you actually can't do this because you have this many new species of blank. These people need this land for blank, basically fighting the good fight for, for the, the, the human beings and the plants and animals in that region. And I was, I became obsessed. I was like, wow, you do need, you do need this visual component to be able to kind of communicate this. And after turning for three years in different places with environmental conservation programs, I got hired as an intern for after college and exhibits where they actually made a whole exhibit about the work that was happening with them as well as other exhibits.
So I got to create video and content for, so that, that was really the way that science sort of entered into the creative world of, of how I was thinking and doing things. And I think that's probably, that was, that was the thing that kind of brought me down this path without that institution and without sort of a friendship and the comradery and the mentorship that I received at the fields. I don't think I would be where I am.
And so I really have to hand it to all the people that were there for me and kind of believed in my, and I was, I was totally crazy sometimes. Like my ideas would be nuts, maybe like, all right, let's try it. When I got, finally full-time hired, they looked at my website, which was, I was like a bunch of like kittens floating in clouds. Like I made it, like, I was just nuts looking like rainbows. And it was like my crazy videos I made in college, but my boss was like, we got to bring this girl. And he was like, we, I just want to meet her.
Like what is going on there? He's like, this is awesome. She seems crazy. So, you know, I guess it, I guess it works to be weird when you work for other weirdos. And that kind of taught me to never hide that side of side of me there. You know, it's really good to be as sincere as you can. It doesn't always have to be like, yes, I am this normal human being that wants to do everything clear. Cut. I think kind of saying the nutso idea that you think is a blue sky, like wild thing is most often what people would probably want to hear, or they want to like dial it back from something insane.
Right. They want to be like, okay, we can't quite do that whole thing, but we like pieces of what you're saying. So, so really that's how that's how science came, became a larger part of, of my kind of art and science brain. And from there, it's just, it's just been, it's just been much easier. I do think practical skills were built. I worked in web development and design after the field, almost incredibly hard place to leave as well when I moved to New York and did a new chapter.
But you know, you kind of have to know when it's time to move on and do something else, but I still love them all. And whenever I go back to Chicago, I go and visit and it's like, I never left.
CM: Yeah. I have to say, I think the field is an exceptional Institute. It's my favorite museum. It's a treasure. It's a national treasure.
SS: It is. It is the best museum. I'm sorry. All other museums, natural history is just, it's just Chicago. It's the place to be.
CM: That's right. Don't get mad. Yeah. I'm going to get some letter in defensive and another museum and then I'll have to visit it poor me.
SS: Oh no, no, no,
CM: No. This is great. And I appreciate the, the length of the story because there's a real life example of how art can actually impact the world in a tangible way. For instance, the saving this land that a visualization makes it easy for, let's say a policymaker to, to understand what's at stake. So that's, that's great. I'm always looking for opportunities to merge art and science in poignant and I dunno, wonderful ways. So thanks for sharing that. And I guess with that, we should transition into the science fiction elements. Yeah. Cool. So are you familiar with the book roadside picnic?
Yes. Okay, great. So I'll just ask the question then at the risk of a great personal peril in prison, mentor, even death, what object, what alien object would you hope to discover in the zone and why?
SS: Okay. Okay. I've given this a lot of thought as a, as a, as a Russian for the pressure's on because not only roadside picnic, but soccer is one of my favorite movies.
CM: Let's give it a little round of applause for Tarkovsky.
SS: I mean, I actually first watched it when I was very young. My brother was like, Hey, you want to check out this really fun, fun movie. He's six years older than me. I was like, yeah, cool. He's like, it's you just got to wait. You know, it's going to be big action. Just have to wait. And I remember waiting the whole movie being like, you did the same thing for 2001, a space Odyssey. I was like, he just wanted me to watch it thinking that there's going to be this big, like huge thing happening, but actually gave me patience with art movies. So thank you to my brother who is a wonderful man.
So I think for me, I actually have to, I couldn't stop thinking about referencing a different cipher or, and so I find movie because that's the object that I want to bring. So I'd want to bring a space transference machine, or that's what I want to find, which is in the movie, Kings are Zara, which is a different scifi movie. It's more of a scifi comedy and it's, it's by a guy named who made a bunch of awesome comedy movies, mainly in the sixties in Russia.
And so this kind of object allows you to travel to any place in space in time. At any moment, you just have to know the number of the planet that you want to go to. And so I think that would be something wonderful to find that you could use for, but I do have to say with the cadence that it doesn't ruin any kind of like space time continuum stuff. So let's just pretend it doesn't because there's a, I don't want to like destroy planets or worlds on accident.
CM: There's real risk associated with the machine in this film that we're eliminating.
SS: I think whenever it's teleportation or like, it's just like, you are tr time-traveling. And I feel like with time travel, you always, you risk, you risk doing something bad, you know? So let's just say that doesn't exist in this case. Cause it doesn't in the movie, you just sort of go to, you can hop around to different worlds. And I think that would be really nice from just a fun perspective. Also it'd be really cool from a perspective of seeing different, you know, alien societies and worlds.
So from like a very scientific perspective as well, and from an art perspective, because then you can go and do, you know, drawings of these different planets and then also maybe even help save our planet by getting new technologies and ideas for how we could, you know, better earth. So space transference, machine
CM: Space, transference machine. Well, okay. So we'll eliminate the possibility that your use of this machine could alter the, you know, have terrible ramifications for wherever you visited. That's a convenient little amendment to the thing. And then, yeah. So you said that you have to know quote, the number of the planet. Is there some universally known organizational index? You know, you could say, but another species might say 61.
SS: So the machine is actually kind of, it's cool looking. It's like a galaxy spiral that you can pull out. I'll send you a picture of it after we're done for reference, or I should, I'll just send you the YouTube clip and start it from the moment where they, they have to, they find the person. So the whole premise of what happens in kids and anxiety, they run into these two people run into this guy outside. I won't go through the whole story, but they run through a guide. That's like, what's the number of your planet. I need to get back to mine.
So he at her currently made a mistake and you know, miss traveled to earth on accident. And what happens is these two get transported into an unknown space in time, which looks like a crazy desert land and meet these aliens that then they have to figure out how to get back to earth. And so yes, there is a risk that you might not be able to, if you don't have the correct coordinates, you could get stuck, which is the premise of the film. But I say, I could write down the coordinates on my hand, maybe get them tattooed so that I'd know how to come back.
CM: Okay. Yes. Well, that's the only, that would be the only thing you have, right. Is you would know where your originating zone coordinates are, but who knows where you'll end up, if you're just guessing, it's not like the list of planets comes with this thing you discover in the zone.
SS: No, it's, it's just like, it's just like literally dots in a spiral galaxy. So, you know, I also think about coming back to earth and you know, this is a Russian movie, so they're obviously like in Russia, but like, I feel like if you come back to coordinate, are they just earth? So do you just like, I don't know wherever, like middle of the Indian ocean or something, I don't know. Right. But that's a risk I'm willing to take. Sounds
CM: Good. I wonder if, do you think that your working forms this object, it seems a lot of what you're doing or building specifically in virtual reality or augmented reality is like a way of instantiating. Something like this technology for people like me.
SS: You could say that. I think, I think when, when, when this question I thought about this question a lot and we've, you know, I've had some time because we got in contact in December, right. And this is January already. I know whole new year. I couldn't, I couldn't get this, this object, this, this object out of my head as the only answer I had. And I don't know. I do think that it's because of, I don't think a lot of the time that what I do is futurist sick until I see other people use it or experienced it.
And then I'm like, so it's not as much futuristic as it, as it is useful. And it, it, it, it uses new technology in a way that I don't think people realize. And so, yeah, you could say that because of this like, kind of futuristic mindset, but I'm talking about a movie from like, I believe that condense hours, I think it's from the eighties, which is not very futuristic, but it's yeah. 1986,
CM: That doesn't surprise me. I think that quite often the most enjoyable science fiction is attempting to imagine what a future looks like. Right? Like where's my flying car. Sasha. Doesn't matter. I can still believe that it's a possibility.
SS: Do you want a flying car though?
CM: No, I don't even know if I want an autonomous vehicle. So I'm just asking where it is. I was promised
SS: Kind of like the bird scooters, so right. I really want to ride one, but I feel like it's really dangerous and I'm just going to end up face planting. So
CM: Yeah, I think that's a likely
SS: Teleportation. I'm not afraid of it at all.
CM: No. You just expect that you safely land, whatever coordinate you select from the sphere. You're, you're putting a lot of trust on this machine.
SS: It's just like, it's, you know, like, like a certain mindset that you're just like, it's all going to be okay. You know, sometimes when you're, you know, doing a certain thing, like playing a sport, you're like, I'm gonna like hit this golf ball. Well, and sometimes when it happens, you're like it's cause I thought I would do it well. So maybe with this machine it's system where
CM: Right. The machine just manifests your visual, your visualization of traveling too. Don't
SS: Don’t be stressed out during teleportation, right?
CM: That's right. That's, that's a risk. Well, I guess in conclusion, maybe you touched upon it, but could you say a little more about how a technology like this could do earth good. What you could learn and bring back to you when you do, you know, return to your tattooed coordinates on her.
SS: That's like, I don't have many tattoos. So that would be literally the only tattoo I would get ever has probably the coordinates. Bring me back to this chair. I just think that a lot of the, sort of, if you talk to scientists where, where I work and you even just, just generally people we study other planets to think about ours. That's the only reason like NASA really exists. You know, we do want to find life on other planets. We do want to find alien life. I think that's a huge goal of NASA because that would inform us and inform the history of our planet.
Right. That's why we're so interested in Mars. And so inevitably I think being able to teleport and safely be in other places would let you observe, observe that. And you know, I would say sampling things and bringing them back as a good, dangerous in this scenario, although that is something NASA wants to do with this Rover, that's going to land in February, we'll be sampling cashing samples, and emission will come and get those samples later on, which isn't slated for when that's going to happen quite yet.
But in a few years after persevere ed class lands on February 18th this year, which will be really fun. But I just think that just simple observation, I think there's nothing really better than sitting there and doing that field research. So if you could, if you could be there in a way that was safe, it'd be amazing. A lot of places aren't tenable for human life. So that's another thing with this where I would say, let's just say I don't suffocate to death. I get to a planet that I can't breathe on, or there's no atmosphere, let's say, right.
CM: Can you imagine if this machine is just a death sentence!?
SS: And I'm gone, but you know, I, someone that I'm personally not interested in being an astronaut, I also just don't think I'm built to be an astronaut mentally or in any other way. And also just, I, I'm not good. I'm very claustrophobic. So I think that automatically makes me not be a good person to, to apply, but if I could be a teleportation, astronaut, and I could be in the comfort of my own bed every evening, you know, with the idea of observing and taking notes on other planets and then saying, Hey, we've actually found this renewable energy that we have here on earth.
Let's do that too. Also just let's say there is life on other planets and it's life that you can communicate with in some way, that's always a dangerous thing, but let's be cautiously optimistic in the way that this has done because anthropology on this level is kind of strange to think about, but I do least that enjoy talking to people. So let's, let's, let's say that I can, you know, see how these, how these other beings live and what they do really fascinating to me. It'd be great if I could just be a fly on the wall, maybe I'd want to be invisible.
I dunno if I could do that with this machine too, might be a good idea.
CM: Your machine keeps it like evolving functionality. You're not going to change things that happen in any society on time. You're safe in any environment. Apparently you can communicate with any speed and you're always safely returned to him, invisible and potentially invisible, but only,
SS: Yeah, potentially visible only because you know, how many examples of, of anthropological, you know, roundings do we have in our society where people go in and accidentally like mess things up by being, you know, careless on not on purpose, but by way of like observing people in the incorrect way and wouldn't want to do that. So, so yeah. Do you have all this written down? All
CM: I have to kind of create a decision tree of all of the things that this, this machine, this space transfer machine can accomplish. It's quite the object.
SS: Yeah. I know you said it could do whatever.
CM: Oh, it can. apparently there's no limit.
SS: I'm I'm workshopping here. It just, this reminds me of when I was little writing, like a list for Santa Claus was really complex for me because I'd be like, wait a second, like, you don't do this, but do that be careful, like, don't eat this cookie, make sure the carrots are for the reindeer. Like I just kept going back. And my mom had to be like, listen, Sasha, like we gotta put an end to this. You have to go to bed. Like I think Santa Claus will figure it out. And I was like, I don't know, you can never have too many instructions. Right, right. Ability, you know, just it's a, it's a user interface, design usability is important.
So you want to make sure to give the correct instructions so people don't get hurt.
CM: That's right. And it's also like when you, when you play with a genie in a lamp, you want to be very careful that the wish that you get is specifically the wish that you want. Right. You can't be misunderstood. And then suddenly you're like a different creature.
SS: Right. You can't wish for never ending wishes. Also. No one should do that. That's that's unfair. Right.
CM: It's unfair. This machine is not unfair,
SS: Especially. Yeah. I just have to, I just have to really create the full, you know, you know, statement of what it can and cannot do. And then I guess I didn't prepare super properly, but you get the idea.
CM: I think we do. Yeah. And I think it would be super fun to explore whether or not you'd be willing to share. It is one thing I think if I found it, I would lock it up in a safe selfishly for my own purposes. But yeah.
SS: Well, yeah, because other people might not respect it in the same way you do. And then, you know, then you have a whole situation. Right.
CM: It's true. But there's also the possibility that by sequestering it, other people with even greater intentions, we haven't imagined lose out on the possibilities. So you have to kind of play that trade-off yeah.
SS: That's true. That's yeah, no, I'll get to that when I get them when I get them.
CM: That's that's a fun one. I would absolutely enjoy using that one. Myself, if you would allow me the opportunity. I think, I think you're on the list. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Well, happy new year and yeah. Happy all of your projects. Thank you again for all the work that JPL did on those respirators. It's incredible.
I'll be sure to link to that and do send me the video from the film where this machine exists. I'll link you in our show notes and I'm also gonna link to a lot of the three 60 videos and projects that you've done for NASA, because they're all openly available. You can download them and do with them what you want. Like you get to be creative.
SS: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I can actually, I can send you the museum page that has all of the downloadable three sixties.
CM: Yeah. So take all of the great creative work that Sasha has done and then play with it yourself. Be further creative, you've it? Yeah.
SS: Do, do all the things and, and you know, that that work has been taken on by other people in the communications department now, too. And so they've done an awesome job in there. Oh, there's one thing I forgot to mention that I wanted to mention about the vital ventilator.
I wanted to say that for the vital ventilators, our head designer, Rob Ray, who works on proto space, actually designed the front panel of the ventilator. And I think the coolest thing about that in terms of maybe some art and design is that the inspiration was the matriarch, which is synthesizer.
And also the, so I just think that, I mean, he just looked at things that were used in dark spaces and different lighting and got inspired by, you know, a sense which really like crosses paths with science in this really interesting way. So I wanted to mention that and give a shout out to Rob because he worked so hard and it's so beautiful and the inspiration behind it is really cool.
CM: I think that's awesome. Again, it's this kind of like retro futurism that fuels technological advancement, like this synthesizer is actually saving lives and it's used as a panel in hospitals. That's pretty sweet. David Krakauer is going to love this, this information. I already know that's fabulous.
SS: I just think design thinking is so interesting and he really did some crazy research and the fact that he landed on a synth is ma makes my heart pitter-patter because as a musician as well, so
CM: Totally Sweet. Yeah. Thanks. And thanks for entering the alien crash site.
SS: Thank you for having me.
CM: Oh, you're welcome. It was a pleasure to catch up.
SS: I teleported. Awesome.
CM: Well, good luck with everything that you're working on this year and you know, I'm not sure exactly what interplanetary is, what form it's going to take. I'm hoping for another in-person event, but I'll keep you apprised if there was an opportunity to collaborate. Yeah.
SS: Yeah. Let me know. And I'm happy to, you know, help out however I can. It's really nice to keep it
CM: Sweet. All right. Well thank you.